The FatGirl Pervert Rants.
photo by melvin moten jr.
I’m fat.
(For the record: I do not use / identify with the euphemism BBW (Big Beautiful Woman). I respect those who do, it just isn’t my choice.
“Large,” “Plus-Sized,” “Big” are terms I occasionally use. For me, I prefer fat.)
I am, unsurprisingly, ambivalent about it.
There isn’t a whole lot of acceptance around fatness today in the US.
And then, I’m kinky.
Yay!
Oh, AND Black.
sigh
Today we will just rant about being fat and kinky.
Ahem!
<rant>
Â
I came into the BDSM community, saw people all shapes sizes and body types in the Dungeon.
I thought “Oh wow! Fantastic! A place where your body type doesn’t matter, where you are accepted for who you are, and no one judges you!”
Well.
No.
I started paying more attention to kinky porn. The models are still slender.
I look at photographs. Tough to find someone not unsvelte.
Hrm.
So then I think “Well, that is still mainstream, right? It ain’t like Skin Two is gonna put fat people in there, they are pretty mainstreamy…”
Then I started going to kink events. Watching classes. Seeing that almost all of the demo bottoms are petite.
The rope people claim to need slender models because it is easier to work with them. You also hear it is tougher to find fat demo models because they are less likely to volunteer. The bondage gear people hide behind the “equipment limitation” issue.
And so on.
And so on.
I recently saw a post on FetLife calling for demo bottoms. Since this was for an event I’m attending, I was eager to volunteer. Then I read the post. The instructor specifically asked for slender models, because (and I am paraphrasing a bit) fuller-figured people’s skin doesn’t clamp / pinch easily.
I was really angry. And a bit stung.
Then I stopped myself.
How the fuck do we, an alternative outlier community, fail to see that all people being represented is far better then some people being represented?
Then I sat there pinching myself.
Quite literally.
I found it was pretty easy to grab skin on some areas, tougher on others. I imagine that to be the case with anyone.
To my jaundiced eye, this smacked of “Look, I don’t wanna play with fat girls so I’ll say something about how it is critical for the class so that I don’t have to reject a bunch of fat people.”
photo by melvin moten jr.
I’m fuming, thinking “So…your class is on “playing with thin people”? You are specifically EXCLUDING an entire class of folks because of their size? What happens to the person in class who is fat, has a fat partner, or might play with a fat person? You have no info for them? Why not have a few demo bottoms? Why not just put your your fucking call for bottoms and pick who you want without being so OBVIOUSLY exclusionary? What if you were teaching a goddanmed class and said “No brown skinned people because the marks don’t show up as well on dark people.” ?!?!”
But then…I didn’t say anything. Because I thought I was being hypersensitive.
Now, I wish I had.
If I run into this person at Beyond Leather, I will ask them about this situation.
I’m willing to bet they will stick to their assertion that it isn’t prejudice, that it really is just utility!
And my response would be, “No.” As an instructor, as a representative of “Our Community,” you have an obligation to educate. Not titillate. That is for the dungeon. We are responsible for helping people play safely and well. How does limiting your pool of demo bottoms further this?
I have to check myself, though.
The BDSM community is no different that the world at large, really. It just has that self-segregating aspect to it.
It is a microcosm. Not a utopia.
When BDSM porn producers consider a size 12 woman to be a “large” model, we haven’t made any strides towards inclusion.
The few classes I have seen that SPECIFICALLY include fat people and kink tend to approach it as an “issue to be “addressed”
photo by melvin moten jr.
I don’t have a fucking issue.
I’m just fat.
And I want to be seen.
I don’t want to be fetishized for being fat.
I don’t want to be beautiful in spite of being fat.
I don’t want to be beautiful because I am fat.
And I sure as hell do not want fat people sidelined and marginalized because we aren’t in your goddamned fetish magazines being held up as the ideal because we aren’t slender.
As beautiful as anyone can be, I want to be.
Years ago I had a lover grab hold of my belly during a fuck. I, of course, instinctively elbowed him in the ribcage and hollered for him to stop grabbing my fat. It made me uncomfortable. I didn’t want him bringing attention to it. Being him, he smacked my hand away and grabbed me with BOTH hands this time and continued to fuck me.
“I like it. So shut up.”
Yeah I did.
Having been the fat girl that some men have “gone outside of their physical ideal” for, I am kind of tired of hearing “Oh but you are so intelligent, so beautiful, we have such amazing chemistry” and having them OVERLOOKING my size.
That is a lot to overlook.
I don’t need for everyone on earth to think that fat girls are sexy, but I do need for my chosen family, the BDSM community, to take a look at our lock-stepping with mainstream ideas about beauty and own that shit.
Only then will it be OK for fat people to step forward and let ourselves be seen as part of the whole, and not set apart.
These photos in this post are from a photographer I’m looking forward to working with soon. The reason I chose to work with him is that he selects his subjects based on who he thinks is hot. He had lots of women of varied body types in his photography. You can see examples here.
But for this post I chose the beautiful ones with bodies that look like mine.
Because I needed to remember that I am beautiful.
And I WILL fucking be seen.
</RANT>
I have had similiar views about this. I too dont like to be cast aside because of what some ideal beauty says. If the fetish scene is supposed to be about exploring alternative ways ot express sexuality and sensuality, than what is the big fat (pun may or may not be intended) deal about conforming to the same ideals of the vanilla world? The reasoning on why I cant be a latex couture model is what annoys me the most.
HOwever I too dont want to be marginilized or fetishized. I think its okay to a certain degree. Honestly I never identified with BBW until I found myself classified as such in the modeling realm. I just am me and thats all I want to be cuz labels should be left on clothing.
As for this guy’s choice of casting requirements for his class, I will say that I have mixed feelings. Honestly I hate my time being wasted. His close mindedness showed out right and it kind of saved you the effort of trying out. Had he concealed his aesthetic preferences, you might of wasted your time only to be rejected and he probably wouldn’t of had the balls to tell you why you didn’t work out. Although Im sure that whether you were being hypersensitive about it this morning or not, he probably would label your outrage as such nonetheless.
Hey Kat!
Yeah, you are right. In retrospect, knowing that there prejudice is in the room is far better than having it fly under the radar.
*sigh*
But that was part of my reticence…thinking that I was somehow overstepping my boundaries….or being too PC, or something :-\
Thanks for reading and for commenting :-)
~Mo
You know, the whole PC element of things is just really annoying… I wish we could have a little more honesty.
Ok, so the guy does not like fat people, It would be nice if he would just say that. I have no doubt that he would offend many people (perhaps even you) but it would be honest. None of the double talking trying to be slick about hiding his preferences.
And why can we not just say fat? I had an experience some time ago when I was living in a different country, and a gentleman I worked/roomed with came up to me to ask a question (I do not even remember what it was) and he said something like “Well you are fat” and it took me by surprise, and I was offended for a minute, but then I realized that he was not being insulting, just stating a truth… yes, I am fat… ok.. next….
Sorry to hijack your rant for a mini-rant of my own…
You are right, as a person, you can have your preferences, but as an educator, a presenter, putting general information out there to the community, you have to think about the entire population.. not just the ‘pretty people’
I hope the comment about being fat was in SOME fucking context!!
Back a while ago I had a friend in the scene tell me that, though he thought I was gorgeous and an outstanding bottom, submissive and slave, he just wasn’t attracted to fat women so it wouldn’t work for him.
Now, setting aside the fact that his harem-collecting incredibly arrogant ass was way outside of my type, it didn’t ruffle me.
The people listening to the conversation gasped and looked at me like i was fittin’ to unleash wrath. I was not at all offended. Why? He stated, CLEARLY, his preferences. How Can I possibly take that personally?
It has NOTHING to do with ME.
However.
Excluding people has everything to do with me.
And I guess it might be time to get my ovaries together and be louder.
xoxo
Mo
so i kinda had a feeling you were uncomfortable w/ the term “bbw” ~ i have used it a couple times in our twitter tete-a-tetes and you tend to get quiet… :) not in a bad way, but just as you said, you don’t identify w/ it, but if i do, fine. so anyway, on to what i came here for, LOL…
look, i have never been thin or skinny and i never will be. which is a good thing b/c i honestly don’t want to be (i wasn’t joking when i said that beth ditto was an almost-ideal body to me ~ her weight on my height would be perfect): i am totally happy being plus-sized, fat, bbw, whatever. but let’s be honest: as a fat girl, i will *ALWAYS* have to choose between a man who sees me as a fetish object and a man who “overlooks” my size (they don’t). the chances of finding a guy who, quote, “likes me for me” and neither b/c of nor in spite of my weight are pretty fucking slim, no pun intended. it’s not a perfect solution, but personally, i’d far rather be fetishized. it can be uncomfortable in it’s own way, but at least i wouldn’t have to learn a shame that i don’t naturally possess ~ i.e. NOT walking around the house naked, NOT wearing sexy clothes, NOT wondering how i look from such-and-such angle, etc. etc. … i feel like if someone was just “overlooking” my fat, i would always wonder whether i disgust them; for better or worse, at least in the bbw community that’s not an issue.
that said, i don’t think that every overweight person has to be labeled either bbw or bhm… i use it not only b/c i’m personally comfortable with it, but also b/c i feel it’s more emotionally neutral, PC if not positive. “fat”, on the other hand, is used more as a slur or an insult. we could now have a whole conversation about fat acceptance and “taking words back”, but i don’t really think that’s the solution… as you said, you just want to be seen. any term used to label is itself a way to ignore things; a way of categorizing, and therefore not thinking anymore about, a certain group.
i think the main problem in the kink community ~ again, totally as an outsider looking in @ your frustration ~ is that weight is simply not talked about, and that’s not acceptable. i vote that you stage a one-woman protest, LOL… i mean, why not have open forums at your events that discuss weight-discrimination in the kink community? open the floodgates and at least get the conversation going: FORCE people to think about it, assess the situation. i have always been a big huge fan of the squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease theory. and although i agree with kat about the demonstrators preferences being stated right up front, i ALSO agree with you that they are probably aesthetic preferences and NOT critical to the demo as they’re presented. i think opening a dialogue will at the very least encourage honesty, which is MUCH preferred to weight just being the unspoken elephant in the room (pun of course NOT intended, but what other metaphor could i have used?).
good luck, mo! ^_^
That is funny. I always forget that my NOT saying something (about the use of the term BBW, for example) can be as much of a “tel” as saying something. It seems lame to squeak up “OMG! I do not like to use that term!” because that is my problem, not anyone else’s, you know?
You are right. Size and body image issues are on the fringe of the BDSM community. In the same way race issues are marginalized because … well … who wants to be the one to bring THAT up?? issues of body size and body image are only now beginning to be positively addressed.
Thank you for rebooting to post this. Your POV is very provocative and provides a lot of grist for my mill, as well as anyone else reading :-)
xoxo
Mo
As presenter you have an obligation to look at your shit. This is part of the reason I could not stand Jay Wiseman’s presentation of Immobilizing Bondage at TES. Very clearly operates from a sexist and heterosexist vantage point.
Mollena doll, I just love you.
I see a LOT of that in presentations. I left a class at an event because the instructor was teaching a 101 rope bondage class and CONSTANTLY referred to bottoms as “she” and made endless references to giving the ladies chocolates and blankets and making them look pretty in bondage. And then got huffy when asked a question about crotch ropes on men.
Of course, HE didn’t know about THAT.
Yeah, you are straight. We get it.
Male bodied folks get short shrift in representation as demo participants at the events I attend.
Fat people too.
We shall overcome, yeah? Maybe? Someday?
love
Mo
I see this a lot too. I left a class at an event recently for similar reasons–the instructor was showing slides of men ripping their own shirts off (superman, the hulk, hulk hogan, etc), and then said he would have pics for the guys too, and showed pics of women’s shirts being ripped off. We walked out. If that level of sexism and heterosexism occurs in the first 5 minutes, it’s only going to get worse.
Ughhhhhhhh! I hate when I go to a dominant demo and the male presenter behaves as though the only possible or desirable configuration is male dominant/female submissive. One guy I saw kept bragging about how many women he had (allegedly) played with. And he wouldn’t even bear to show us how to use the tools on the male demo bottom (a volunteer from the audience.) Instead, he had his female submissive awkwardly wield the toy as he told her what to do. *eyeroll* It was a waste of time.
Bravo! While the bdsm world is saddled with the same bullshit as the vanilla world, I’ve found that there is a place for women of all body types in bdsm – I think there’s a lot of acceptance even if a few asshats have issues with fat women. I’m fat and at a recent bdsm/swing party I was very much in demand – and I don’t think it was a fetishization at all. I do think that you should speak up about the demo model situation as demo models should represent all of us – why the fuck not?
Hey there lovely!
I clearly need to go to the parties YOU are attending…because I am just NOT getting all that many nommable hits!
I am so startled finding myself kind of riled up about this topic. ON and offline it has been all the buzz in my IMs and DMs. My whole morning’s twitter feed was quite a center of cheeping on the topic.
And then I realized “Hey. Hey, yeah. WHO is holding presenters accountable?
Maybe me?
Thank you SO much for your comment and for reading :-)
xoxo
~Mollena
Oh thank you for this article. I can’t tell you how many tops I meet that make weird noises about body size. I mean, I get it that we all want to be attracted and attractive, but there is a lot of sizeism in the scene.
And for those of us smaller girls that don’t actually like to bottom much, but top more, the reverse insult comes in a lot. Like a little femme girl isn’t butch enough to top. Eh. I don’t like being neurotic about my weight (I was a dancer) and I had hoped there’d be more egalitarianism.
I have seen MANY petite women physically dismissed as dominant because of their stature. It cuts all ways.
I recall hearing a friend who is a diminutive dom tell me she was once PICKED UP by some presumptuous assbandit and twirled around, being called a cute little thing.
To this day dude probably limps from the tongue lashing she gave him.
Yes, there are many fucktardios ni the scene, many people who make insane assumption and behave badly.
And lots of people don’t realise referring to someone as “skinny” can be hurtful too.
Someone who has, for example, struggled with an eating disorder can be AS DAMAGED by attention paid to their size as a fat girl.
Thank yo SO much for your comment. We gotta get all of this out in the light.
Peace
~Mo
As always, you rock.
I’m a very large woman. I’m tall, I’ve got a large frame, I’ve got a good deal of muscle, and on top of all that I’m fat.
In the BDSM scene, I’ve found far more acceptance than I have in any other group. I can show up at a party in a corset and get nothing but admiring looks…then later take the corset off and get _just as many_ admiring looks. Me? Taking clothes off in public, at my size?? Heaven forbid…;)
I’m fat, and clips and clamps stay on my skin just fine…
@kayce: I love your point about the concept of neither because of or in spite of…I don’t know if there’s that perfect middle ground, though. I wish there was…
Thanks for that reminder…it is indeed so awesome how much acceptance there can be…and I have grown SO much in my self and around myself in the past 12 or so years.
It is a blessing. And one I am glad you’ve had in your life as well :-)
Thank you, lovely!
xoxo
Mo
I always thought BBW was a bit of a misnomer because not all fat women are beautiful, just as not all smaller women are. I know they’re being “fat positive” but it’s still a misnomer if you ask me. So I don’t refer to myself as a BBW.
This I especially liked and agree with:
“I don’t want to be fetishized for being fat.
I don’t want to be beautiful in spite of being fat.
I don’t want to be beautiful because I am fat.”
The last sentence sums up my entire first sentiment.
You know I love reading your words, Mo.
Thank you Eliot!
:-)
It means so much to me to have such an overwhelming response form old buddies as well as from new folks.
I feel like beautiful is what you feel. Even people towards whom I don’t feel attraction can be beautiful.
And gods know there are people who have technically beautiful external bits and are, inside, as cold and barren as to defy imagination.
Thanks again lovely!
xoox
Love
Mo
What is “fat”? It’s rare to meet a woman who doesn’t feel she’s fat in some way or another. Most are not fat but are certain that they are.
Howdy!
It is true: most people are trained to be unhappy with themselves and rarely encouraged to be peaceful with who they are or incorporate a sustainable lifestyle that WILL bring them to happiness.
For my purposes, I go with the general idea that anything around a size 14 or about is considered “Plus Size” and if you wanna get fancy, you can check one of them there BMI charts.
According to which, BTW, I am clinically obese.
Thanks for stopping by!
Peace
~Mo
It’s hard to know what to say about this issue. On one hand, I would hate to be told I “have to” or “should” work with a certain type of person because of “diversity” reasons. On the other hand I understand very well the feeling that I’ve been excluded from the sexual world because of my appearance…Those feelings have a lot to do with the work I do (and who I do it with).
In all honesty I’ve never thought much about who the demo bottom is in any seminar I’ve been to — mostly because we have so few of them where I live that we’re happy to see *anyone* demo for us. I shall definitely be more attentive to this issue in the future though and probably ask the demonstrator what their selection process is.
And “fat” people out there who want to do kinky/dirty pictures, please contact me…I’ve been looking for you.
Yay!
Hi Melvin :-D
I never feel that anyone should do what doesn’t feel right for them as an artist.
But there is a difference between doing the art you love and TEACHING the art you love.
I’d hope that, in the case you were teaching a class on photographing the nude, you’d have the students use a variety of models, shape size colour, in order to obtain that skill set :-)
Thereafter than can go photograph dogshit with tiny flags stuck in for all I care. But I feel pretty damn strongly that peolpe teaching should embrace diversity, and thereafter, taste and preference will out.
See ya in in May!
xoxo
~Mo
As I’ve stated before, sometimes it’s hard to find a diverse group of people willing to participate. I think you’ll be the third black model I’ve worked with in 10 years…And even “fat” models I’ve worked with over and over still have a moment of “do I really want to do this” before we start to work. A private scene (or even a play party) is one thing…When an audience or camera is present, it tends to give even the hardiest souls pause.
You so rock fat girl!!!
Also your eloquence is pretty fucking hot too.
I don’t know if you caught my tweet earlier today on this issue, but maybe it is time someone started up a series of classes more focused towards larger body types. There is definitely a need in the community for this. A: so that people can learn to play safely with their bodies and B: so that people do not have to feel marginalized for their bodies.
Just a thought.
Arglghghgh.
How the hell did I catch the Zeitgeist like TWICE in the same month?!?!
Even now confabulations are in place. My DM blew up today, you wouldn’t believe.
There are enough people who DO care about and feel that diversity is more than just PC, it is about safety too.
Wheels are turnin’.
xoxo
smewch!
Mo
“How the hell did I catch the Zeitgeist like TWICE in the same month?!?!”
I’ve been meaning to talk with you about that. Are you practicing safe rants? Not just once in a while, but every single time? Because, you know, _nice_ girls don’t do unsafe ranting.
And you know what happens to _those_ girls.
– e
P.S. A little eye candy of my beloved: http://www.clock.org/~ambar/jsd/angel.html You might want to chat with her photographer about posing for him as well: http://jsd.com/html/contact.html
Why would I ever go to a class that was only for folks who play with thin people. I’m a fat activist, am fat myself, and most frequently top other fat folks. That class would not only be offensive in it’s premise, but also just not useful to me.
I was recently in a class where the instructor announced at the beginning that what she was going to teach should only be used on perfectly healthy people. As someone who is disabled, and who most frequently plays with other folks that are also disabled and/or have ongoing health issues, I thought to myseld…what’s the point? I will learn nothing that I can use, and will sit here, offended, the entire time. I no longer go to this person’s classes, and will not.
I must say that I have done pinching/clamps demos with exclusively fat demo bottoms (and that is a subject I teach). I have found that actually the more skin you’ve got, the more there is to pinch.
When I’m selecting a demo bottom, I am looking for:
1. chemistry
2. responsiveness (particularly physical and vocal responsiveness, as that engages the audience)
3. enjoyment/love for the topic I’m teaching
4. ability to articulate their experience of play and why they do that particular thing
I do see kink education as part education part sexual performance. My experience of it has been that there are people who come to classes just for the demo, but also that there are folks who learn kinesthetically and visually, and get more out of a demo-based class than one that doesn’t have a demo. I know that physical skills are often the classes that draw the biggest, and I think that is partly because they are often ones that include demos. People enjoy being voyeurs. Similarly to the way I hide what I want to teach within the erotica I write, and the sex is the carrot I hold out to the reader so that they get the other stuff too, a demo is often the carrot to get folks in the room to learn the other stuff I want to teach, and I’m consciously thinking about that.
Hello Corey :-)
That is SO true and that is the dilemma I face in being a bottom and a presenter. There are some topics I HAVE to have a demo top for, and some subjects for which I don’t have a demo at all. I fret about the lookieloo factor, I worry I’m not enough to captivate when people expect a pierced greased naked supermodel upside down on fire.
But I do what I can
As I mentioned: if something is outside of the instructors area of expertise, they obviously ought not teach it. And in the case you mention, the class you speak of was not going to be helpful to you, and exercising your feet is, IMO, the best way to go.
I am not bucking to lay waste to the ranks of instructors. I DO think it is worthwhile for Event Planners, Organizations and Educators to really look at where things are going and consider whether or not we are leaving room for people who DO wish to contribute to a wider spectrum of information and education.
xoxo
Peace and thanks for your comment!
~Mo
At the risk of being flamed, I’ll make 2 contrary comments:
1) Most BDSM instructors I’ve seen are teaching from the perspective of their own experience. That’s not surprising to me. It’s not like there’s a Certified BDSM Instructors track at your local community college.
For example, take the one comment about Jay Wiseman… I can’t claim to “know” him, but I have taken a day-long class from him and spent an hour or so talking with him over lunch, and I feel comfortable saying that he’s not the sort of guy who is going to teach *anything* that he is not *really really sure about* from his *own personal* experience.
Unless we’re going to go the route of saying people shouldn’t be personally unattracted to fat people (or members of the same sex, or, or, or), and if people are teaching from their experience, this whole issue isn’t that surprising to me.
Well, ok, I happen to like all shapes and sizes for different reasons… so that particular kind of pickiness is always a bit surprising to me… on the other hand, I’m depressingly straight so I guess I get it… E.g. I have no problem at all teaching my non-erotic massage class at Burning Man using male subjects… but I’m not likely to teach any male-on-male erotic massage classes anytime soon… not because there’s anything wrong with it, but just because I know absolutely nothing about it and would have a really hard time “getting into it”… is that really a problem for anyone? Really?
2) Like it or not, there *are* differences in demo’ing BDSM techniques on fat people. It’s not necessarily something you have to address as a “problem”, but ignoring it would be a big mistake.
Take shibari: you need at least twice as much rope to do the same thing as on a slim person. That instructor may not personally even *own* a bunch of handy ropes of the right lengths. Additionally, it takes longer, because you have to pull that whole length of rope through each of the knots. That, alone, is reason enough to stick to slim people for this particular topic.
Suspension bondage? Surely that one’s obvious unless you happen to be somewhere with specially architected and tested supports.
Even just clamps and handcuffs are specialized equipment, and only fit certain shapes and sizes *well*. Are we going to blame someone for not, themselves, owning the right equipment for their demos, or not wanting to demo on people for whom their equipment is sub-optimal, or even dangerous?
Tolerance, yes, fantastic. Let’s all expect/demand that. But expecting everyone to have the same preferences, experience, and comfort zones as the rest of us is naive and unreasonable.
At the risk of being flamed, I’ll make 2 contrary comments:
I’m not in the habit of flaming people though I will passionately discuss that about which I’m passionate.
1) Most BDSM instructors I’ve seen are teaching from the perspective of their own experience. That’s not surprising to me. It’s not like there’s a Certified BDSM Instructors track at your local community college.
For example, take the one comment about Jay Wiseman… I can’t claim to “know†him, but I have taken a day-long class from him and spent an hour or so talking with him over lunch, and I feel comfortable saying that he’s not the sort of guy who is going to teach *anything* that he is not *really really sure about* from his *own personal* experience.
If your experience s so limited and your research capacity (i.e. obtaining anecdotal information) about that which is outside of your personal interest is so crippled that you refuse to accommodate a reasonable spectrum of BDSM players, I suggest you aren’t a capable instructor.
I teach a class on Taboo play. I teach a class on Race Play. It would be a SERIOUS oversight if I did not present the POV of those who find that play distasteful. I do not find it so. I love it. BUT I have the capacity to talk to people who think it is sick and wrong and that it should never be done, and I present their unvarnished opinion of me and of that type of play. That is called doing your homework and accommodating as many eventualities as you can.
As to your example of Jay; I do know him and have since 1998. When he did his rope bondage video he specifically asked me to be in it as to have someone unskinny in the video.
http://www.jaywiseman.com/MER_DVD.html
But he is representative of only one style of teaching. Some people do rely on the research of others. On intuition. A broader spectrum is very needed at this critical juncture between older leather tradition and the Internet era of BDSM.
Unless we’re going to go the route of saying people shouldn’t be personally unattracted to fat people (or members of the same sex, or, or, or), and if people are teaching from their experience, this whole issue isn’t that surprising to me.
Well, ok, I happen to like all shapes and sizes for different reasons… so that particular kind of pickiness is always a bit surprising to me… on the other hand, I’m depressingly straight so I guess I get it… E.g. I have no problem at all teaching my non-erotic massage class at Burning Man using male subjects… but I’m not likely to teach any male-on-male erotic massage classes anytime soon… not because there’s anything wrong with it, but just because I know absolutely nothing about it and would have a really hard time “getting into itâ€â€¦ is that really a problem for anyone? Really?
No it isn’t a problem for anyone. Of course not and no one woudl suggest it is. HOWEVER if you billed yourself as teaching an “Erotic Massage Class” and then talked all through class about how you don’t dig on males and talked at no time about male anatomy, yes, I would have a problem with that.
No one walks in to a vaginal fisting class expecting a male demo bottom. But a class advertised on “Fisting 101” has an obligation to involve male and female fisting.
2) Like it or not, there *are* differences in demo’ing BDSM techniques on fat people. It’s not necessarily something you have to address as a “problemâ€, but ignoring it would be a big mistake.
Yes and that is the whole bloody point of my rant. It IS different and SHOULD be addressed and if you ARE GOING TO IGNORE it you damm sure better let us all know up front in your class description.
There are differences in lifesaving techniques for fat people too. Do you think a “Dungeon Safety” class should include finding a pulse in a fat person if you can’t find one in their neck? Or how to get someone out of harm’s way iof they are to heavy for you to lift? Would you trust an instructor who lacked that knowledge because “They haven’t had to rescue a fat person?”
Take shibari: you need at least twice as much rope to do the same thing as on a slim person. That instructor may not personally even *own* a bunch of handy ropes of the right lengths. Additionally, it takes longer, because you have to pull that whole length of rope through each of the knots. That, alone, is reason enough to stick to slim people for this particular topic.
Bullshit.
If you know any riggers you know they have shitloads of rope. That is kind of the whole. Bloody. Point.
If you don’t have, for STARTER, a lot of rope, you have NO BUSINESS teaching a rope bondage class!!
And if you aren’t prepared for eventualities you aren’t prepared to teach.
And if you are doing this to be “fast,” and you only know how to tie thin peple up quickly, that is great but YOU ARE EXCLUDING A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE and therefore your class should be called “Fast Rope Bondage for the Petite Bottom.”
Suspension bondage? Surely that one’s obvious unless you happen to be somewhere with specially architected and tested supports.
Even just clamps and handcuffs are specialized equipment, and only fit certain shapes and sizes *well*. Are we going to blame someone for not, themselves, owning the right equipment for their demos, or not wanting to demo on people for whom their equipment is sub-optimal, or even dangerous?
I am going to refrain from all out ALL CAPS LOCK incredulity.
We aren’t talking about moving a fucking piano, Ray.
We are talking about a few hundred pounds, probably. And if you know anything about dungeons you know that they build in mad redundancy in their rigs. Here in SF most of the equipment is rated at 1K pounds JUST to be EXTRA cautious.
ANY VENUE presenting a class ought to be able to provide fairly standard bondage equipment and I’ve yet to encounter a place that had anything rated less that 750 pounds that is dungeon specific and BDSM intended for suspension.
I’ll say it again. BE SPECIFIC if your class isn’t for everyone. Just say it. I’ve been turned down before for demo stuff because of these very excuses and, lo and behold, each and every time it was also a reflection of a body type preference in the instructor.
DO what you gotta do, but have the ovaries / balls to own it.
Tolerance, yes, fantastic. Let’s all expect/demand that. But expecting everyone to have the same preferences, experience, and comfort zones as the rest of us is naive and unreasonable.
Yes, and I made that clear.
And now I’ve underscored it.
But is is not only reasonable it is necessary for safety to have people being held up as instructors and leaders DEMONSTRATE WIITWD with equanimity.
It is unreasonable and dangerous to let people leading the community get away with bias when it very well could endanger someone’s safety-and well being.
Thank you for your post!
Peace
~Mollena
fabulous reply, on all points. i will continue to call bullshit on this kind of fatphobic nonsense.
just as an aside, i’ll have you know that there are plenty of male-identified and/or male-presenting folks who gladly partake in bottoming in vaginal fisting workshops, myself included ;)
Oh, I was totally going to reply and say exactly what romham did. I think I’ll say it anyhow, though, because 2 voices are better than one. :)
I know plenty of men with vaginas who like to be fisted. (To clarify: trans* male-identified/presenting folks who happen to have been born with a vagina.)
I’ll call Bullhshit on this too. I’m a plus sized girl, over 200 lbs, and i’ve been suspended, been a demo bunny, played on all sorts of equipment and yanno what? It all fits me! Guess what else! I’m also SHORT, 5’2, which is below average height, and you know what? All the equpment fit me in that way too!
The rigger i work with the most has said that you can do anything to a fat chick that you can do to a skinny chick, it just requires more rope.
THAT’S the kind of attitude we need in our community.
There is also the fact that (as Mo has pointed out) that it does not always need to be shown as much as addressed…
I had the pleasure of attending a class/workshop put on by Lee Harrington, and while the bottoms (one male, one female) were on the closer to HWP continuum, as he was showing different ties, he talked about if you are doing this on a bigger person, if you are playing with a disabled person, etc… He PRESENTED the information…
I’ve demo bottomed for Lee several times, for several different subjects, and I’m not even close to HWP. He does a fabulous job of considering as many eventualities as possible–and aside from being smart, experienced and a good teacher, he’s fun too. :)
[…] there’s a post that’s just worth doing that. So seriously, go read Mollena’s The FatGirl Pervert Rants I recently saw a post on FetLife calling for demo bottoms. Since this was for an event I’m […]
Wow!! I am absolutely in awe of how well you stated the case for yourself and everyone else in your community. I am glad you spoke your piece. And I agree, you ROCK!!
xoxo~Sadie
Thank you SO much!
I think I may have hit a nerve or something!
But everything comes to fruition when it is supposed to.
As it happens I am about to spend a weekend with a whole lotta movers and shakers and far more famous perverts than I…I am hoping that this is the wake up call I need to pull my big-girl pantie son and pipe up.
I hope…?
xoox
~Mo
this was sent to me by a very good friend of mine, and i have to tell you that by half way through it, i was in tears. i completely agree with you. i have an adult website that i have had for about a year now, and i have to say this. i am 6’2″, AND NOT AT ALL SMALL. I TOO AM A FAT GIRL, AND I AM PROUD!!
i have been to several events locally, and only once have i ever been asked to do a demo, and it was not by someone from my town, but an out of town guest. i just wanted you to know that i hear you, and i appreciate this post soooo much more than you will ever know. it makes me remember that beauty is below the surface.
i was recently told by a man at a munch not that long ago that i was beautiful, smart, and all of those things, and that after i lost 100 pounds (its my goal for health reasons) that maybe we could play. i said no thank you, if i am not good enough for you now, you will not be good enough for me then. thank you thank you thank you from the bottom of my fat girl heart.
Carefully Removing Polite Blog Host Hat
THAT MOTHERFUCKER.
Putting Polite Blog Host Hat Back On
I am, actually GLAD that that individual had the temerity and untrammeled bastardian fuckitude to say such a thing to you, and that you realized a truth about him and about yourself. THAT there is a gift.
Facts are:
1) That you are valuable for who you are, not for how much you weigh.
2) Whatever your goal for your physical appearance, that it is a goal YOU set FOR YOURSELF!!! And in NOT in order to get the “Hottie of your Dreams.”.
Please.
I have been happy and fat and unhappy and fat.
Been thin and miserable and thin and happy.
In my case, there is no evidence that I’m a better human being at a size 10 than at a size 18. I’ve gone up and down. But I have, seriously and finally, detached the expectation of love from my need to fit into your standards or your jeans.
Love
and deepest appreciation for reading and hearing me.
Mollena
i said no thank you, if i am not good enough for you now, you will not be good enough for me then.
OMG that’s awesome!! Go you! I am going to remember that one. :)
The irony is…From the fotos I’ve seen of you…you’re hardly “fat” — We really seem to be getting to the point where “fat” is anything over 107 pounds.
Since my fotos were used to illustrate this (excellent) post, I really want to stress that I don’t work with “fat” models because I should; I work with them because I think they’re *fucking hot*. Trust me, there’s nothing noble about what I do…I’m just making the kind of wank material that I personally enjoy (and can’t easily find in the mainstream).
Well mErocrush, if you are ever in MI and need plus sized models, i know there are at least 2 of us here that would volunteer. :)
me please!!!!! *raises hand* your work is fantastic, and it may not be noble, but it IS effing hot. ;) thank you, for all the girls like me and melkitty, we say a big thank you.
YES! That too! AMAZING work! Just love it!
Hmm…haven’t been to MI in a few years. Are there any cool/cheap hotels in the area?
Oh MANY, and we have a pretty rockin BDSM community too. Rope groups, BDSM organizations, munches and outright great peeps. Oh, and btw, we are on the COOL side of MI, the West side.
I would happily pose for you as well. Currently I am mostly living in the Hudson Valley area of NY.
Can you visit Manhattan?
I love you.
I’ve ranted about this sort of thing and yes. Fuck. Yes.
Fuck yeah.
I swear to Ganesha I really am humbled by all of the support and the thoughtful criticism here too.
Amazing!
Thank yo for reading and for the dap!
xoxo
Love
Mo
Mo — It will amuse you (in a horrified sort of way) to hear that a certain famous local (well, not anymore) fetish photographer told me that I was “fatter than he preferred to work with.”
Amazingly, as a person who will probably always be at least a little bit recovering from anorexia, I managed to turn this into something that cause me growth, and didn’t take offense (just ignored it really.) Although I do enjoy telling the story to every up and coming fetish/kinky model, with the suggestion not to work with the bastard….
The great irony in all of this was that after a I put on high heels and a corset, he added reflectively, “You know, you’re actually a fine piece of ass.”
Yes, I know. It’s amazing how if you put someone who isn’t all skin and bones into a corset, how you get nice curves like that!
You realize that I am going to get the name out of you if I have to Invoke Teh Evil One to assist me :-D
Although I suspect he is predisposed to torture you for no particular reason at all…so…
This is truly a reminder of the fact that ALL of us have out bodies used as a check, balance and control mechanism but people around us, by advertising, by peer pressure…it never ends and we’re all in it.
Thank you, Zille, for sharing that..it really underscores the universality of this ongoing subject.
You are the awesome, also, in case I didn’t tell you today.
Love
Mo
Happy to share it — but I forgot to tell the punchline, which makes it all end on a positive note (for all of us, I think)
This photographer — let’s name him Asshat, shall we?– would see me out at the fetish club nights, and several times came up to me and tried to get me to model for him (he had forgotten me each time, and since my hair is always in flux he might not have recognized me at first even if he did have two brain cells to rub together) so even though he said that horrible stuff about me, in the end he kept wanting me to model for him, after all.
(It doesn’t need saying, but I turned him down every time he tried to solicit me again….)
The style right now is for skinny. But it wasn’t always that way (the oft mentioned paintings by Rubens, f’r’instance) and I’m sure the pendulum of style will swing round again, eventually — and then we can all eat bon bons and revel in our sexy roundness! ;)
Maybe a project could be to find quotes from the past, and from other cultures, where women with curves are appreciated, and put them on a site…? (Illustrated by lovely pictures and photos as well, of course!)
oh, and do you know the wonderful project by, of all people, Leonard Nimoy?!
http://www.leonardnimoyphotography.com/7body.htm
Meh… what I get for being an amateur, I suppose. Yes, if you’re talking about professional dom/mes teaching classes in well-equipped dungeons then most of what you’re saying is perfectly valid*. All the erotically oriented classes I’ve taken have been in more casual environments (e.g. Burning Man and the like).
(* One exception I can think of is that I’ve seen someone demo’ing a half-dozen suspension techniques in a class, and they were sweating enough by the end with thin demo models that I would forgive even a pro for not wanting to do the whole thing with heavy ones).
Having taught numerous classes (in vanilla stuff) myself, I will say that time is always too short, teaching is already exhausting when done right, and when you’re trying to describe your class for a brochure it’s hard enough to concisely say what your class is *about*, without trying to describe all the things that it is not about, at least if you care about the topic at all. Same for selecting the actual content.
That said, if I were teaching a class in massage, say, and there were fat people in the room, I would certainly point out any techniques I was demonstrating that were *especially* difficult or different on such a person, so, yeah, good point.
And if most of the people in the room were fat, I’d probably end up teaching an entirely different class… because there really are a *lot* of techniques that don’t work nearly as well (or at least take more skill than someone taking a basic class is going to pick up in an hour or two) above a certain thickness of padding.
Ugh… thinking about it, there’s one class I teach in a particular muscle visualization technique that’s not very effective on fat people unless you’ve been working on them specifically for years (it’s just *really* hard, not fundamentally different)… thinking about this scenario makes me shudder, not because I have issues with fat, but because it’s like that dream where you forgot to get dressed before going to school.
A random sampling of people is *highly* unlikely to trigger that, though… and I’m probably not going to think to write it into a class description, either, unless it’s specifically the point of the class. How would I even word it? “If everyone that shows up is fat, I may have to teach a different class”? Might work, I suppose, if I were into being righteously torn a new asshole by an angry mob :-).
BTW, when I say “fat” I’m really talking about fat. My wife’s >300 pounds and about 5’5″. Size 16 is the same as size 6 when it comes to most of this stuff, and anyone that’s making a big deal of such minor differences is, indeed, a douchebag.
i love the whole “i don’t mind fat ppl b/c my [wife, lover, friend, brother] is fat”… it’s the fat equivalent of “i’m not racist, i have black friends!”
leave your wife out of this, ray.
PS: clearly, mollena spanked you good (ha!) because the tone of this post is VERY different from the first one. you could have saved a hell of a lot of typing by just saying “point taken, my bad.” GO MO! ^_^
Hell, I could have saved a lot of typing by not posting anything, but largely unjustified righteous indignation annoys me.
http://xkcd.com/386/
After you’ve volunteered to teach enough classes, it’s almost inevitable you’ll get to a point where your reaction to this kind of stuff is “you want that class, you teach it — this one’s mine, you’re welcome very much”.
Of course, some comedians deal hecklers better than others.
Oh, and you’re right… it’s vastly more effective to say “None of my many close black friends think I’m the least bit racist, what’s *your* problem?”.
Wow. I should have told my top that clips and clamps wouldn’t fit me right because I’m fat before he put that damned zipper on me Saturday night!
*grin*
I guess I’ve been lucky or picky or intuitive or something, because the folks I’ve been interested in demo bottoming for have pretty uniformly been happy to work with my fat self.
I think it’s interesting that so many of the people who have responded to your post have assumed that the presenter in question was a man. You didn’t actually indicate the individual’s gender. I’ve run into plenty of fat-phobic women/non-male-identified individuals in the scene, too.
I would much rather hear that someone isn’t attracted to fat people than have them try to rationalize their prejudice with demeaning, ignorant and just plain wrong claims that such-and-such technique won’t work right on a fat person. If somebody isn’t into me because I’m fat, that’s fine. Maybe I’m not into that person because they smell funny or they can’t string together an interesting sentence.
The more I read your blog, the more I’m becoming convinced that you seriously rock. :)
[…] Rant: despite being slammed at work I coughed this one up. http://www.mollena.com/2009/04/fat/ The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
I love this post, and anyway this comment is just here to say that it reminded me of one of my biggest pet peeves in the kink community and blogged about it. Sorry for the comment and not a linkback… I’m still a technonewb sometimes so I’m not entirely sure what I’m doing!
http://not-in-denial.livejournal.com/886348.html
I am fat, and short…and a switch! I own the photographer who took these beautiful photos Melvin Motin Jr. and I am so proud of him for choosing who he works with based on what he likes.
I have never been outright told I am too fat to be a sub or a Domme. But I have sent in answers to casting calls asking for fetish models and been totally ignored.
I have also been lucky enough to play with people who were attracted to women of my size.I was even told by a Dom once he loved tying bigger women up because the rope had more to “bite” into and left better marks.
I just wish more of the mainstream Kink events showed that you don’t have to be 120 pounds and 24 years old to be into the BDSM scene.
there is so much yes in this post and the comments. thanks you!
[…] Mollena writes the FatGirl Pervert Rants. See, at most BDSM educational events, there are demonstrations of techniques. And there is a call […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Confessional: Breaking the Girl […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
I really enjoyed reading your posting. It was very enlightening to view BDSM culture from your prospective. Keep up the good work
This is a great artical it really opens up my eyes.
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
[…] Sex & Politics The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
I love this rant. Gorgeous!
[…] The FatGirl Pervert Rants. […]
Hi Mollena, i appreciate your post and love the way you write.
exclusion seems to be everywhere, especially for *fat* people, me being one myself, i just think they who exclude are missing out on the good one.
thanks for writing.
Awsome post and to the purpose. I not very grasp if this is really the most effective place to raise but does one guys have any thoughts on where to employ several pro writers? Thank you!